The man or bear hypothetical (2 Viewers)

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SaintInBucLand said:
Kinda how when women complain about a man being in their locker room and the real women in there feel uncomfortable but their feelings don't matter because a man who thinks he is a woman wants to be in there.
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You have to follow the "privilege/oppression/victimhood" hierarchy. People only get to "complain up." Men are higher on the social totem pole than women, so all negative "men bad" type feelings are valid and have to be emphasized. However, women are above trans people on the totem pole, so they don't get to assert negative feelings downward.
 
This thread is hurting my brain and not in a good way. There seems to be a total disconnect between what people are talking about along with a good bit of "culture war" talking points rhetoric thrown in for good measure. Totally talking past each other with not a bit of engagement or common ground.

From my point of view a woman's feelings matter on both issues. The question is whether or not we should act on those feelings or not? Should we only act if the feelings are logical? Should we act regardless of if they are logical or not?

In the bear hypothetical nobody is calling for any action. The point many were making is that maybe we, as men, should look at the fact that some women choose the bear, logical or not. And many do it with full knowledge that it is not logical to send a message about sexual assault and the number of predatory men out there. So, I think the point is that we, as men, should maybe think about how we interact with women and call out other guys when their behaviour is unacceptable. Arguing that it is not logical and trying to explain why it is not misses the point.

In the Trans bathroom hypo, there is a call for action based on the feelings of some women. I think women who feel uncomfortable in those situations have valid feelings. I think they are illogical because a Trans Woman is not likely to do anything to violate her or her privacy any more than a random guy in the woods is likely to do those things. But, it's a feeling some women have and I get it. And the nature of feelings are that they are often not logical.

But, in the end there are no rights being taken away or changed in the bear hypo where as there are in the Trans woman hypo which means that the two scenarios aren't really analogous. So, the second issue is really better discussed separate from the first because the first only asks you to recognize how some women feel on the issue and the second asks you to recognize how some women feel on the issue and act on it in such a way that it affects the rights of others to use the bathroom that makes them feel comfortable.

For my part, I'm not sure where I stand on the bathroom issue. I don't care if Tans Men want to use the men's bathroom, but I can see why some women would be uncomfortable in that situation with a Trans Woman. I know that when my daughter was young I wasn't comfortable if I had to take her in a men's bathroom and I have never been comfortable when another father had to take his little girl in the men's bathroom. But, that doesn't mean my feelings should be validated and little girls have to pee themselves if they are with their dad in a public place. So should the fact that some women, and men, feel uncomfortable about Trans Men or Trans Women mean that they have to pee themselves if they are in a public place with no private/unisex bathrooms?

On the other hand, Trans Women may feel uncomfortable having to use a "Men's" bathroom and Trans Men may feel uncomfortable using a "Woman's" bathroom. So, I think it's a two sided issue where everyone potentially has feelings of discomfort other than most biological men who are usually non-plused by most things. Then again, I kind of wonder if the real issue is that heterosexual biological males are uncomfortable about their wife, girlfriend, or daughter being in a bathroom with someone they consider to be male?

Anyway, we should just gradually transition to all unisex bathrooms and nobody would care anymore.
 
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St. Widge said:
This thread is hurting my brain and not in a good way. There seems to be a total disconnect between what people are talking about along with a good bit of "culture war" talking points rhetoric thrown in for good measure. Totally talking past each other with not a bit of engagement or common ground.

From my point of view a woman's feelings matter on both issues. The question is whether or not we should act on those feelings or not? Should we only act if the feelings are logical? Should we act regardless of if they are logical or not?

In the bear hypothetical nobody is calling for any action. The point many were making is that maybe we, as men, should look at the fact that some women choose the bear, logical or not. And many do it with full knowledge that it is not logical to send a message about sexual assault and the number of predatory men out there. So, I think the point is that we, as men, should maybe think about how we interact with women and call out other guys when their behaviour is unacceptable. Arguing that it is not logical and trying to explain why it is not misses the point.

In the Trans bathroom hypo, there is a call for action based on the feelings of some women. I think women who feel uncomfortable in those situations have valid feelings. I think they are illogical because a Trans Woman is not likely to do anything to violate her or her privacy any more than a random guy in the woods is likely to do those things. But, it's a feeling some women have and I get it. And the nature of feelings are that they are often not logical.

But, in the end there are no rights being taken away or changed in the bear hypo where as there are in the Trans woman hypo which means that the two scenarios aren't really analogous. So, the second issue is really better discussed separate from the first because the first only asks you to recognize how some women feel on the issue and the second asks you to recognize how some women feel on the issue and act on it in such a way that it affects the rights of others to use the bathroom that makes them feel comfortable.

For my part, I'm not sure where I stand on the bathroom issue. I don't care if Tans Men want to use the men's bathroom, but I can see why some women would be uncomfortable in that situation with a Trans Woman. I know that when my daughter was young I wasn't comfortable if I had to take her in a men's bathroom and I have never been comfortable when another father had to take his little girl in the men's bathroom. But, that doesn't mean my feelings should be validated and little girls have to pee themselves if they are with their dad in a public place. So should the fact that some women, and men, feel uncomfortable about Trans Men or Trans Women mean that they have to pee themselves if they are in a public place with no private/unisex bathrooms?

On the other hand, Trans Women may feel uncomfortable having to use a "Men's" bathroom and Trans Men may feel uncomfortable using a "Woman's" bathroom. So, I think it's a two sided issue where everyone potentially has feelings of discomfort other than most biological men who are usually non-plused by most things. Then again, I kind of wonder if the real issue is that heterosexual biological males are uncomfortable about their wife, girlfriend, or daughter being in a bathroom with someone they consider to be male?

Anyway, we should just gradually transition to all unisex bathrooms and nobody would care anymore.
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i have a co-worker get mad because he went to some store and his daughter went to the bathroom but came back and said she didn't know which one to go in . they had three unisex bathrooms instead of the typical 2 separate.
"they are forcing us to change everything".. all i could do was laugh to myself..
 
guidomerkinsrules said:
Do you fly?
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Have you tried to assault someone in an airplane bathroom? Really, really tight quarters..

But seriously, an airplane bathroom is a single stall, that you can lock. No one is going to try to break in without a good number of people watching them.
 
Madmarsha said:
Guys, I'm sitting here ...





... finding out how women think.
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right
The attempt at the logic trap was a decent attempt but only in theory like i mentioned
He could have gone with
‘can women be scared of sharing nature with birders of color’
or
‘can women be scared of people cooking out in a public park’
or
‘can women be scared of people who live in the same apartment building they do’
I mean there are SO MANY real world examples to pull from
 
I love y'all here. You're like the brothers from another mother that I never had ....


.... but I don't want nonya telling me how I feel 'bout nuttin'!!


I do kinda like elevators, tho.
 
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Madmarsha said:
I love y'all here. You're like the brothers from another mother that I never had ....


.... but I don't want nonya telling me how I feel 'bout nuttin'!!


I do kinda like elevators, tho.
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Who is telling you how you feel about things?
 

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