Saints vs. Bears Gameday Thread (1 Viewer)

[Bill]

Yes! Bucs drop another game thanks to Stroud!

And to think, the Panthers COULD have had him!
That would have been a killer for the Saints!

 

[Low Energy]

Stroud saved my pick for this game but I lost my pick in MIN-ATL game,,,,but I’m happy to live with that.

 

[Bill]

The failclowns and the Yucs lose is fantastic fashion. Makes our ugly win prettier. Lol.

Almost.

 

[saintmdterps]

Falcons might be Falconing their game.

Yup, they did

 

[Centmssaint1]

Now routing for the Bryce young to get his second win. And Bill Vinovich’s crew strikes and gives the Colts a 1st on a called neutral zone infringement. Ugh!!!

 

[anoldfan]

Allen is damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t. Grupe misses the kick like he missed the next opportunity and everyone would be moaning about not sneaking it for a first as if it’s a given that we get it. Since we went for it and didn’t get it now it’s a given that Grupe makes the kick. Allen/Carmichael are way too conservative until they go aggressive and it backfires then everyone is saying they should be conservative. Even on the last set of downs people were questioning whether we’d run the ball as if we didn’t try that the first 3 chances we had to ice the game.

To clarify I’m not saying I’m happy with the second half offense today, especially in the 4th. The first half defense was also atrocious and I hold Allen particularly accountable for that. What I am saying is that for some on here (seemingly half the board) Allen and Carmichael can’t win no matter what decisions they make.

Regarding that last line... that's because they are losers.

 

[Saintman2884]

Allen is damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t. Grupe misses the kick like he missed the next opportunity and everyone would be moaning about not sneaking it for a first as if it’s a given that we get it. Since we went for it and didn’t get it now it’s a given that Grupe makes the kick. Allen/Carmichael are way too conservative until they go aggressive and it backfires then everyone is saying they should be conservative. Even on the last set of downs people were questioning whether we’d run the ball as if we didn’t try that the first 3 chances we had to ice the game.

To clarify I’m not saying I’m happy with the second half offense today, especially in the 4th. The first half defense was also atrocious and I hold Allen particularly accountable for that. What I am saying is that for some on here (seemingly half the board) Allen and Carmichael can’t win no matter what decisions they make.

He doesn't know the meaning of

Allen is damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t. Grupe misses the kick like he missed the next opportunity and everyone would be moaning about not sneaking it for a first as if it’s a given that we get it. Since we went for it and didn’t get it now it’s a given that Grupe makes the kick. Allen/Carmichael are way too conservative until they go aggressive and it backfires then everyone is saying they should be conservative. Even on the last set of downs people were questioning whether we’d run the ball as if we didn’t try that the first 3 chances we had to ice the game.

To clarify I’m not saying I’m happy with the second half offense today, especially in the 4th. The first half defense was also atrocious and I hold Allen particularly accountable for that. What I am saying is that for some on here (seemingly half the board) Allen and Carmichael can’t win no matter what decisions they make.

He doesn't know the meaning of making smart, intelligent, sensible in-game decision making. When he makes aggressive play-calls, he doesn't use the right players, like Hill on 4th down and inches. Usually, good or decent HCs make decisions based on best percentage type plays based on situation during games, Allen tries to buck the trend. He isn't a smart HC and he doesn't know to play aggressive, calculated football like Peyton in his prime did.

 

[Bill]

Now routing for the Bryce young to get his second win. And Bill Vinovich’s crew strikes and gives the Colts a 1st on a called neutral zone infringement. Ugh!!!

I’d prefer if the Panthers would save their victories for NFC South opponents and NFC opponents. We’re probably going to need the help.

 

[Centmssaint1]

I’d prefer if the Panthers would save their victories for NFC South opponents and NFC opponents. We’re probably going to need the help.

Let them win as long as it’s not against us. We got a 4-game lead on them. Let’s keep it that way.

 

[Saintslfc13]

He doesn't know the meaning of

He doesn't know the meaning of making smart, intelligent, sensible in-game decision making. When he makes aggressive play-calls, he doesn't use the right players, like Hill on 4th down and inches. Usually, good or decent HCs make decisions based on best percentage type plays based on situation during games, Allen tries to buck the trend. He isn't a smart HC and he doesn't know to play aggressive, calculated football like Peyton in his prime did.

I’ve already said this but Payton would’ve used Drew on that sneak play rather than Taysom back when they were both here. It’s not about who’s taking the snap at that point, it’s about the o-line moving the d-line a yard at most. Have we ever even called a Taysom Hill sneak other than when he had to start the game? It’s literally a waste of his ability and because of the nature of the play there is no reason to use him there. Our line should be good enough to move their line a yard, let alone inches, when they know that’s what’s needed. Today they weren’t.

 

[Saintman2884]

I’ve already said this but Payton would’ve used Drew on that sneak play rather than Taysom back when they were both here. It’s not about who’s taking the snap at that point, it’s about the o-line moving the d-line a yard at most. Have we ever even called a Taysom Hill sneak other than when he had to start the game? It’s literally a waste of his ability and because of the nature of the play there is no reason to use him there. Our line should be good enough to move their line a yard, let alone inches, when they know that’s what’s needed. Today they weren’t.

If Taysom had been included in on that 4th and inches, we make it more likely then if we use Carr because Carr didnt get off a really good push and dig harder on that play, whereas Hill wouldve used more trucking and torque to get those extra few yards? Whether we usually or tend to employ Hill in past formations or drives regardless of if Payton or Allen were our HC, is sort of irrevalent. We use Taysom for critical situations like those, among many others, during games. Our O-line also isn't very good this year or the past couple of seasons since Sean's departure, so their usefulness in those type situations is also highly suspect much less be argued by either one of us as a "given" that their consistently reliable on 3rd or 4th down and short.

Also, we're still dancing around the main issue and that's Allen didnt need to be aggressive because Grupe, even though he's struggled, probably makes that FG in the 4th to make it a 10-point game. Thats what a smart, intelligent HC who makes common sense decisions would've done in those situations and when he tries to be aggressive, he doesn't do it right or correct way to make sure it succeeds.

 

[Saintslfc13]

If Taysom had been included in on that 4th and inches, we make it more likely then if we use Carr because Carr didnt get off a really good push and dig harder on that play, whereas Hill wouldve used more trucking and torque to get those extra few yards? Whether we usually or tend to employ Hill in past formations or drives regardless of if Payton or Allen were our HC, is sort of irrevalent. We use Taysom for critical situations like those, among many others, during games. Our O-line also isn't very good this year or the past couple of seasons since Sean's departure, so their usefulness in those type situations is also highly suspect much less be argued by either one of us as a "given" that their consistently reliable on 3rd or 4th down and short.

Also, we're still dancing around the main issue and that's Allen didnt need to be aggressive because Grupe, even though he's struggled, probably makes that FG in the 4th to make it a 10-point game. Thats what a smart, intelligent HC who makes common sense decisions would've done in those situations and when he tries to be aggressive, he doesn't do it right or correct way to make sure it succeeds.

I appreciate your opinion about Hill vs Carr on the sneak play. I don’t think it matters who took the snap because the o-line didn’t get enough push to get the inches needed let alone a yard. Maybe they do better with Taysom, maybe not, we’ll never know so it is what it is. You have a point about Sean’s decisions with Drew being irrelevant because neither are here anymore but plenty of people (not you necessarily) compare Allen to Payton so that’s why I mentioned it.

As far as Grupe factors into it, he missed a kick from a very similar position just a few minutes later. Again we cannot and will not ever know what happens if Allen decides to kick it on the 4th and inches rather than go for it. He should make it, just like he should’ve made the one he missed. The only point I was trying to make is that at least half the board will never see Allen, or Carmichael for that matter, as competent coaches no matter what decisions they make. Which has been the case for quite awhile now. I already know how it plays out if Grupe misses a kick on 4th and inches and it doesn’t involve anyone that’s already made their mind up about Allen saying “good call, bad execution”.

 

[Saintman2884]

I appreciate your opinion about Hill vs Carr on the sneak play. I don’t think it matters who took the snap because the o-line didn’t get enough push to get the inches needed let alone a yard. Maybe they do better with Taysom, maybe not, we’ll never know so it is what it is. You have a point about Sean’s decisions with Drew being irrelevant because neither are here anymore but plenty of people (not you necessarily) compare Allen to Payton so that’s why I mentioned it.

As far as Grupe factors into it, he missed a kick from a very similar position just a few minutes later. Again we cannot and will not ever know what happens if Allen decides to kick it on the 4th and inches rather than go for it. He should make it, just like he should’ve made the one he missed. The only point I was trying to make is that at least half the board will never see Allen, or Carmichael for that matter, as competent coaches no matter what decisions they make. Which has been the case for quite awhile now. I already know how it plays out if Grupe misses a kick on 4th and inches and it doesn’t involve anyone that’s already made their mind up about Allen saying “good call, bad execution”.

Winning, in of itself, is a beautiful, wonderful thing. That's why we get up so early in the morning for 17 weeks in fall and early winter, getting angry, upset, hopefully jubilant, overjoyed after over 3 hours, our team wins a hard-fought, bitterly contested struggle, or in the afternoons, since I think you live in Belfast, NI, if I'm correct? If not, I apologize.

It's just over the past season-and-a-half, Allen and Carmichael have not made winning easy and there's more then a few games during their tenure, they should've won with a modicum of smarter, instinctive, more adept in-game decision-making, executing better percentage plays or calling better percentage plays, in general. I think one of the primary reasons why it seems like half of the board doesn't like Allen is that they've come to the conclusion that winning, when it does happen, won't be easy and often, have to come about with the team winning in spite of some of his bad decisions. Good teams shouldn't have to be forced to find ways to overcome their HC often less-advised, not very intelligent gameplans.

 

[Saintslfc13]

Winning, in of itself, is a beautiful, wonderful thing. That's why we get up so early in the morning for 17 weeks in fall and early winter, getting angry, upset, hopefully jubilant, overjoyed after over 3 hours, our team wins a hard-fought, bitterly contested struggle, or in the afternoons, since I think you live in Belfast, NI, if I'm correct? If not, I apologize.

It's just over the past season-and-a-half, Allen and Carmichael have not made winning easy and there's more then a few games during their tenure, they should've won with a modicum of smarter, instinctive, more adept in-game decision-making, executing better percentage plays or calling better percentage plays, in general. I think one of the primary reasons why it seems like half of the board doesn't like Allen is that they've come to the conclusion that winning, when it does happen, won't be easy and often, have to come about with the team winning in spite of some of his bad decisions. Good teams shouldn't have to be forced to find ways to overcome their HC often less-advised, not very intelligent gameplans.

Winning is great, we all agree on that. I live in Long Beach, CA but I also support Liverpool FC on Merseyside (hence the handle) so I understand why you might think I'm from Nothern Ireland or elsewhere across the pond. No apology necessary, but I appreciate it nonetheless.

I understand the frustrations with Allen and Carmichael believe me. Dennis Allen's "end of half" Defense is just about my least favorite thing to do with the Saints dating back about a decade now. I just think that for some (again not necessarily you) it's gone beyond criticizing their faults and got to the point where they're always going to be looked at as the problem if things don't work out for us on any given play. I'm not a huge fan of him as a Head Coach at all, but when I see someone being criticized for seemingly trying to change it doesn't sit well with me. Carmichael probably should've fired after last season, so far the offense trash was until the last few games with one outlier if I'm not mistaken. Part of that though has absolutely been on the players at various points of this season, the o-line has been horrible before the lasts 2-3 weeks. The QB play has been average or less for the most part with a few outliers again (o-line and receivers being a part of that). The receivers have all the talent and they do make plays but they also individually have had multiple errors, but since I'm not in the room I'm not sure if that's on the QB or the Receiver other than the obvious ones plus with the o-line issues who's to say? Running game should be amazing on paper yet outside of individual brilliance or perfect execution it's just not been there again I've bad blocks, bad reads by the RB's and sometimes the other team just wins the down.

As far as gameplanning goes, I think Dennis Allen's ceiling is Mike Tomlin. His floor is "insert any failed defensive HC here". He wants to rely on the defense to win the games or at least hang around long enough to pull it out in the 4th. He's comfortable with that and in theory it works if the offense can hold up it's end of the bargain. They barely managed it today but they did end up doing it, however through the first half and I'd argue 3 quarters the offense was performing way better than the D was today.