if they fix the Oline... (1 Viewer)

[DerrickB]

Curious to know how sure you are that you'll know for sure?

Know what?

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

Oline was less of a problem last year once Peat was inserted. Major problem was how the offense utilized it's best players and how much weight they put on the QB to carry the offense and then putting the run game in no win situations. Offense ended up in 3rd and long a high amount (can someone pull those stats) compared to rest of league.

Granted we'll have two new starters at T both unproven, I believe in this schemes ability to aid oline play. I also believe in those new coaches we hired over what Marrone was able to do. Their recent rack record and history speaks for itself.

Just curious to know what will your expectations be for the team if the Oline gets fixed: does it move the needle upward or not at all? does that improvement alone make this a playoff team, a contender? What else do you need to see?
I'll go on record and say that if Penning becomes a serviceable to good LT, the team will make the playoffs.

 

[wnelson]

If our oline overperforms we will be in the playoffs

 

[St. Widge]

Oline was less of a problem last year once Peat was inserted. Major problem was how the offense utilized it's best players and how much weight they put on the QB to carry the offense and then putting the run game in no win situations. Offense ended up in 3rd and long a high amount (can someone pull those stats) compared to rest of league.

Granted we'll have two new starters at T both unproven, I believe in this schemes ability to aid oline play. I also believe in those new coaches we hired over what Marrone was able to do. Their recent rack record and history speaks for itself.

I agree about last year to an extent, but even after Peat was inserted they still could not run block and I think some of the O-Line looking better in pass protection is that they started using more play action, 3 step drops, and 5 step drops which masked some of the issues in pass protection at LT and RT. Peat was about average, but Ram was playing hurt and his replacements were not good which necessitated changes to the play calling. As much as I think it was time for Pete to move on, he did a good job of play calling in the later part of the season. I just think it was time for a new system and new ideas because the offense had gotten stale. That and I think you are right that Shanahan system helps make things easier on the OL and I think play action, 3 step drops, and 5 step drops are a more natural fit in the Shanhan system than the Payton system. Payton used quick stuff in Brees' later years, but it wasn't really how that offense is designed to work.

 

[Alan12]

If they fix the OL it should move the needle to playoff caliber due to having a great shot at winning the division, however to reach contender status and make a deep run (not just one-and-done) they also need to get the DL sorted as well.

We had trouble stopping the run against any team that had even an average rushing attack and other than Granderson last year, the pass rush was almost nonexistent. Bresee did fine as a rookie so hopefully he continues to progress more. We'll see how much gas Cam has left in the tank which can be supplemented by the signing of Young as well.

 

[RebSaint]

I think besides Carr, T. Penning's play and the rest of the O-Line will be key to the Saints' success or lack thereof this season.

I'm hoping that the new O-line coach can get more out of this group than last year, otherwise, I think the Saints will probably be sitting home again come playoff time.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

I agree about last year to an extent, but even after Peat was inserted they still could not run block and I think some of the O-Line looking better in pass protection is that they started using more play action, 3 step drops, and 5 step drops which masked some of the issues in pass protection at LT and RT. Peat was about average, but Ram was playing hurt and his replacements were not good which necessitated changes to the play calling. As much as I think it was time for Pete to move on, he did a good job of play calling in the later part of the season. I just think it was time for a new system and new ideas because the offense had gotten stale. That and I think you are right that Shanahan system helps make things easier on the OL and I think play action, 3 step drops, and 5 step drops are a more natural fit in the Shanhan system than the Payton system. Payton used quick stuff in Brees' later years, but it wasn't really how that offense is designed to work.

I think Pete did a better job at calling plays, won't say he did a good job. I wrote a thread earlier that year that pointed out when Pete feels pressure or the offense is facing a bad situation he'll resort to what he knows best and in pressure moments he would revert to pass, pass, pass or pass, negative run, pass.

He'd even have moments where he'd get a run for 4-5 yards on 1st down, and then on 2nd and 4 he'd line up Kamara at WR....throw a screen to him that went for -4 yards and then be right back at 3rd and 8+. It literally made no sense, line Kamara up at Tailback and hand him the ball 2-3 yards deep if you want to do a quick screen (extension of the run) where he ball has to travel in the air 4-5 yards to get to the receiver.

 

[St. Widge]

I think Pete did a better job at calling plays, won't say he did a good job. I wrote a thread earlier that year that pointed out when Pete feels pressure or the offense is facing a bad situation he'll resort to what he knows best and in pressure moments he would revert to pass, pass, pass or pass, negative run, pass.

He'd even have moments where he'd get a run for 4-5 yards on 1st down, and then on 2nd and 4 he'd line up Kamara at WR....throw a screen to him that went for -4 yards and then be right back at 3rd and 8+. It literally made no sense, line Kamara up at Tailback and hand him the ball 2-3 yards deep if you want to do a quick screen (extension of the run) where he ball has to travel in the air 4-5 yards to get to the receiver.

That's fair, the sequencing still often made no sense. I guess I more meant that he started to call more play action and more 3 and 5 step drops to protect the OL and do what Carr does best. You are right that it wasn't "good". Better than earlier in the season is probably the right way to put it. I also think he failed to keep Shaheed involved as a playmaker and failed to use Hill in inventive ways to get him in space which never made any sense to me.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

That's fair, the sequencing still often made no sense. I guess I more meant that he started to call more play action and more 3 and 5 step drops to protect the OL and do what Carr does best. You are right that it wasn't "good". Better than earlier in the season is probably the right way to put it. I also think he failed to keep Shaheed involved as a playmaker and failed to use Hill in inventive ways to get him in space which never made any sense to me.

He did and yet, there was more than enough tape out there on Carr and how he functioned best. Even if you look at how Gruden called plays in his best season he was a guy who it was a MUST that he was supported by the run. As much as DA wants to just have someone he can trust to do their thing on offense (like Payton wanted when he hired 3G and Allen) I can't help but get annoyed with Pete for failing to adapt to who Carr was and has been.

We should have never started out week 1 asking him to be Drew Brees and we did, and I put that more on Pete than Allen. Wasn't like Allen was dealing with a rookie OC that he needed to keep Tabs on. Pete's experienced as an OC and a playcaller and yet for 2/3's of the season he gave us a product that did not accentuate who Carr was despite there being enough evidence to clearly show who he is and how he best needed to be supported.

The defense started to see it's impact wane around the time DA had to start helping out on the offensive side of the ball because Pete and Carr couldn't get right.


It literally took Pete all of training camp + 12 games to figure out an identity. That's inexcusable.

 

[RebSaint]

I think Pete did a better job at calling plays, won't say he did a good job. I wrote a thread earlier that year that pointed out when Pete feels pressure or the offense is facing a bad situation he'll resort to what he knows best and in pressure moments he would revert to pass, pass, pass or pass, negative run, pass.

He'd even have moments where he'd get a run for 4-5 yards on 1st down, and then on 2nd and 4 he'd line up Kamara at WR....throw a screen to him that went for -4 yards and then be right back at 3rd and 8+. It literally made no sense, line Kamara up at Tailback and hand him the ball 2-3 yards deep if you want to do a quick screen (extension of the run) where he ball has to travel in the air 4-5 yards to get to the receiver.

Yes. The issue with running a version of SP's offense is the maintenance of a good, steady rhythm. Without Brees and Payton, PC was exposed as just an average in-game play-caller. I also noticed that it worked a lot better when running up-tempo. Things often got sideways when the game was close or better yet, the Saints were ahead and couldn't salt the game away. The Payton-Brees-PC system also relied on getting the ball out quick because the QB almost always gets into the right play after reading the defense.

Put simply, Carr could do it, but just not fast enough.

I think a lot of it had to do with Carr not being able to change the play and operate the offense as fast and efficiently as Brees. I don't think PC was the entire problem here. The offense was almost tailor-made for DB and I don't think changed much with his successors. Also, the inability to run the football consistently allowed teams to bring more pressure than the Saints' o-line could handle. In sum, it was a critical mass of problems that stemmed largely from PC not being able to run an offense to maximize what he had.

My biggest problem with DA is that he seems to be just "evolving" or "growing" in the HC he needed to be a few years ago. He just should have purged all vestiges of Payton's staff going forward. Clearly, this let's not change too many things for the sake of continuity hasn't worked.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

My biggest problem with DA is that he seems to be just "evolving" or "growing" in the HC he needed to be a few years ago. He just should have purged all vestiges of Payton's staff going forward. Clearly, this let's not change too many things for the sake of continuity hasn't worked.

I always point back to DA's opening press conference after being announced, and he mentions "building on the foundation" that was already in place. At the time it made sense to us as fans, it made sense to them. You have an offense in place that has proven to work, you have a defense/HC in place that's had success. You have a OC that you're keeping, he's experience has called plays, has built an offense....it made sense to keep things in place.

Issue #1 was attempting to secure a QB because Payton left the team in dire need of one. They were unable to year 1, but found an perceived upgrade in Carr year 2. Carr exposed that in order for the offense to work, it has to have an elite QB and their chance of getting one was lower so in year 3 you realize you have to go to a system that makes things easier on the QB.

I think his evolution is happening in order and on time, you wanted different results, and you believed continuity would bring better results than it did but it didn't and once that became painfully obvious he moved on from Pete and found a guy.

I don't know that asking him to scrap everything instantly would have been the right choice outside of hindsight saying perhaps he should have, and that's far to easy to say now that we've had time to see the results. No one could have saw that happening with what was already in place foundationally.

 

[RebSaint]

I always point back to DA's opening press conference after being announced, and he mentions "building on the foundation" that was already in place. At the time it made sense to us as fans, it made sense to them. You have an offense in place that has proven to work, you have a defense/HC in place that's had success. You have a OC that you're keeping, he's experience has called plays, has built an offense....it made sense to keep things in place.

Issue #1 was attempting to secure a QB because Payton left the team in dire need of one. They were unable to year 1, but found an perceived upgrade in Carr year 2. Carr exposed that in order for the offense to work, it has to have an elite QB and their chance of getting one was lower so in year 3 you realize you have to go to a system that makes things easier on the QB.

I think his evolution is happening in order and on time, you wanted different results, and you believed continuity would bring better results than it did but it didn't and once that became painfully obvious he moved on from Pete and found a guy.

I don't know that asking him to scrap everything instantly would have been the right choice outside of hindsight saying perhaps he should have, and that's far to easy to say now that we've had time to see the results. No one could have saw that happening with what was already in place foundationally.

I agree with you that scrapping the whole thing from the get-go at the time wouldn't have looked like a good move--hindsight being 20-20 and such. My specific frustration surrounds the fact that DA is just way too risk averse to be a successful HC. We can critique how many times SP was a bit too reckless in his decision-making, but DA has shown some pretty terrible in-game instincts. The Rams game was a good example; he took some risks, but I thought they were reckless; I go the sense that he was "compensating" for being so risk-averse. I don't think he thrives under well under pressure and has good insticts, ergo finally making decisions which needed to be made months or a year prior.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

I agree with you that scrapping the whole thing from the get-go at the time wouldn't have looked like a good move--hindsight being 20-20 and such. My specific frustration surrounds the fact that DA is just way too risk averse to be a successful HC. We can critique how many times SP was a bit too reckless in his decision-making, but DA has shown some pretty terrible in-game instincts. The Rams game was a good example; he took some risks, but I thought they were reckless; I go the sense that he was "compensating" for being so risk-averse. I don't think he thrives under well under pressure and has good insticts, ergo finally making decisions which needed to be made months or a year prior.

I agree with that, and I recall the moments you are speaking of. For instance, the playcall that caused the Minnesota Miracle was terrible. We had a LB covering grass and a different playcall keeps the Safety from having to cover so much ground to make a sideline tackle. Yet, he's grown from that and last year was the #1 defensive playcaller in the league (depending on what metrics you use)

Similarly I think there's opportunity for growth this year, just by having more challenges available to coaches. Isn't one of the tweaks that if you get 1 challenge right you automatically get a 3rd? Perhaps he uses that, he'll never be Sean P with regards to calling an onside kick to start 2nd half of a SB but he doesn't need to be. He just needs to be the best version of Dennis Allen...that takes time.

It's why I agree with Mickey being patient with him.

There's more than one way to skin a cat and I think he'll find a way to improve on his shortcomings and challenging more play calls may be the way. Blitzing more may be the way..we'll see.

 

[DSnfla]

Just curious to know what will your expectations be for the team if the Oline gets fixed: does it move the needle upward or not at all? does that improvement alone make this a playoff team, a contender? What else do you need to see?
I'll go on record and say that if Penning becomes a serviceable to good LT, the team will make the playoffs.

Last yr we won 9 games not really winning any games we were not supposed to. Our starting QB was hurt not enough to be out but enough to affect his performance. AK was suspended for 3 games. Latt was hurt half the yr. We win ONE MORE GAME and we win the division.

This yr, We really have no significant losses player wise. Udo is on the same level as Peat. Ram was a shell of his former self and was a weak link. MT was not the same MT and he was out most of the yr. Baun and Maye losses don't move the needle. And did we really need JW back??
Additions, Just by returning from a injury rookie yr we'll get more production out of Saldiveri and Miller. Maybe this is the yr Turner stays for the most part healthy because he has shown some ability in the few games he was healthy. We added one of the best OT's and CB's in the draft . We signed Young who if he just does as well as he did last yr improves our pass rush. Gay upgrades our LBs Horvath does the same to our FB position. If Cedrick Wilson is the guy he was with the Cowboys he'll help with the WRs.
But our biggest addition is a almost whole new offensive coaching staff. A new QB, OL and RB friendly system. 2 very good OL coaches in Benton and Dennison and no more Pete. For those that say we had the easiest schedule last yr it's not really much harder this yr it's really negligible, go compare it.
In our division really only ATL got better with Cousins and he's coming off a Achilles tear. Tampa lost Canales and he kept Mayfield in check . Car did really not improve other than Legett

I don't think all of what I listed is sunshine pumping and I would not be shocked if we won the division @ 10-7 -11-6

 

[Whodat GT]

Last yr we won 9 games not really winning any games we were not supposed to. Our starting QB was hurt not enough to be out but enough to affect his performance. AK was suspended for 3 games. Latt was hurt half the yr. We win ONE MORE GAME and we win the division.

This yr, We really have no significant losses player wise. Udo is on the same level as Peat. Ram was a shell of his former self and was a weak link. MT was not the same MT and he was out most of the yr. Baun and Maye losses don't move the needle. And did we really need JW back??
Additions, Just by returning from a injury rookie yr we'll get more production out of Saldiveri and Miller. Maybe this is the yr Turner stays for the most part healthy because he has shown some ability in the few games he was healthy. We added one of the best OT's and CB's in the draft . We signed Young who if he just does as well as he did last yr improves our pass rush. Gay upgrades our LBs Horvath does the same to our FB position. If Cedrick Wilson is the guy he was with the Cowboys he'll help with the WRs.
But our biggest addition is a almost whole new offensive coaching staff. A new QB, OL and RB friendly system. 2 very good OL coaches in Benton and Dennison and no more Pete. For those that say we had the easiest schedule last yr it's not really much harder this yr it's really negligible, go compare it.
In our division really only ATL got better with Cousins and he's coming off a Achilles tear. Tampa lost Canales and he kept Mayfield in check . Car did really not improve other than Legett

I don't think all of what I listed is sunshine pumping and I would not be shocked if we won the division @ 10-7 -11-6

Appreciate the evaluation, maybe there are less reasons to think the team is regressing. Really makes you think that its easy to buy into media narratives: i.e. the Saints are a weak team now. I think the team has made enough smart moves during the offseason to provide some optimism.
Another thing that fuels the idea the Saints will be bad this year, IMO, is the perception that the NFC South is a weak division. As we all know, this can change really fast in the league. If ATL becomes a playoff team with Cousins, all of the sudden you have two, potentially three teams that could compete for the playoffs. All of a sudden, the NFC South is not so weak anymore.
But there could be new competition from teams of other divisions who were though of as weak in prior years: Bears, Commanders, Cards if Murray stays healthy...